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Operation Bulldog IV (2009) Engagement Distance Rules

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HammerHead

major

Posts: 243

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:42 am

Location: San Antonio

Post Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:13 am

Operation Bulldog IV (2009) Engagement Distance Rules

We will use the same engagement distance rules as were used in 2008. Please be aware that if you request to be a member of your army's chain of command you will be taking on the responsibilities of helping to mediate player disagreements. Like the airlines say, if you are unwilling or unable to perform these duties, please do not request to be among the player leadership ;).

I was exceptionally cautious and wary of these rules, last year, but each and every player made them a success - your challenge this year is to repeat that success and safety record, even if this will be your first time at EMF/HMF.

1. All assault rifle class AEGs, GBB pistols, and semi-auto capable SMGs may be used on SEMI AUTO ONLY INDOORS. All CO2 pistols and NBB pistols MUST be chronoed and marked.

Be courteous to other players in these engagements:
1.a. Control your rate of fire - you may be firing on semi auto, but pulling the trigger exceptionally fast may give the impression that you are engaging with full-auto.
1.b. Offer surrenders.
1.c. Resolve disputes amicably.
1.d. If you witness, but are not involved in a dispute, attempt to help the other players resolve the matter equitably.

2. Minimum engagement distance with AEGs will be hard and fast 20 feet, indoors or outdoors. Anything closer than 20 feet, you must engage with a pistol or offer a surrender.

3. You absolutely may not engage other players indoors with any replica which chronos, legally, above 400FPS @ 0.20g BBs. Doing so is grounds for ejection from the scenario and may be considered as grounds for dismissal from the event.

4. Complaints/disputes regarding full auto incidents indoors with any type of replica and/or engagement distance violations INDOORS OR OUTDOORS are up to the players to attempt to resolve on the spot. If you are unable to resolve the dispute, utilize your chain of command to resolve the dispute or parlay/surrender both players out of the engagement.

If you and your PLAYER chain of command are unable to resolve the dispute reasonably, have your squad leader contact a member of the event staff to intervene. Do not take the dispute to your army commander or John Lu.

As players and players in the chain of command, be VERY aware that calling for a cease fire, for any reason, IMMEDIATELY and WITHOUT EXCEPTION alerts staff to a situation as an EMERGENCY. If you choose to call a cease fire to resolve the dispute, be prepared for staff to intervene and apply penalties regardless of how your player chain of command has handled the situation prior to staff arrival on the scene.

Escalating any of these complaints/disputes to staff without attempting to resolve the dispute within your chain of command will result in a point penalty applied to both players.

Escalating said complaints/disputes to John Lu or your army commanders without escalating through your chain of command and event staff, properly, will result in a greater point penalty to both players and may result in consideration for ejection from play.
TGL
Whiskey Company

OP:NS1 H0201 | NS2 H0201 | NS3 H0302 | NS4 H0008
OP:BD1 Insurgent 7 Lead | BD2, BD3, BD4, BD5 Chief of Staff
OP:I5 Delta 3 Actual | I6 TFR0403 | I7 TFR:TFD BSM
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Toadvine

lieutenant

Posts: 107

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:07 pm

Post Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:39 pm

This may be a stupid question...but I'll ask anyway.

Are the FPS limits at Bulldog the same as those at Irene? Or, since we're playing in Texas, will we follow TASO rules?
What have you got that a man could drink with just a minimum risk of blindness and death.
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HammerHead

major

Posts: 243

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:42 am

Location: San Antonio

Post Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:26 pm

We're following TASO rules. Chrono readings will be based on the TASO muzzle energy chart.
TGL
Whiskey Company

OP:NS1 H0201 | NS2 H0201 | NS3 H0302 | NS4 H0008
OP:BD1 Insurgent 7 Lead | BD2, BD3, BD4, BD5 Chief of Staff
OP:I5 Delta 3 Actual | I6 TFR0403 | I7 TFR:TFD BSM
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LoTone

soldier

Posts: 4

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:28 pm

Post Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:29 pm

It says if we are under 20 feet, use a pistol. Do low FPS pistols have a range limit requirement/limitation?

For example, I have an AEP that shoots around 200 (on a good day). Say I'm clearing a building and am engaged within 10 feet or so? Does the battle wage on until one of is hit, do we call each other out, do we Parlay and back off (which if inside presents it's own problems), or is it one-for-one and we are both out? Just checking before hand because I have played CQB with ridiculous engagement ranges, FPS's, etc. Since you guys are encouraging the CQB play for BD4, I just want to have a good understanding of how it's going to go down. I know, we can, "What If" it all day long, but CQB is just that, CQB. "Bang Bang" won't work when you're clearing a building full of rooms when one guy has a gun pointed towards a door and other guys are coming through it. Know what I mean?

Maybe I'm tainted by what I've seen and experienced at other places/events, and maybe you can't give a clear cut answer, but if at all possible I'd like any clarification you can.

LT
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AustinWolv

major

Posts: 271

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:59 pm

Location: Round Rock, TX

Post Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:22 am

Do low FPS pistols have a range limit requirement/limitation?

No, engage close as that is what the lower muzzle energy pistols are for. Needless to say, you don't stick it up on someone's neck.
Aim centermass or lower whenever possible.

Say I'm clearing a building and am engaged within 10 feet or so?

Shooter should call themselves out if they knowingly engage that close with a rifle.
If two players encounter each other, one with rifle and one with pistol inside of 20 feet and both fire.....pistol has right-of-way. Rifle was in the wrong.
If two rifles come up on each other and neither fire, that is a parlay situation, and they should be backing off.....or racing to see who can draw pistol first.
If two rifles come up on each other and both fire, the *right* thing to do is for both players to call themselves out, since they were both wrong.

Expect there to be gray areas, especially when players first breach and expect to see more rifles used on first floors versus a much higher percentage of pistols used as people work into upper floors.......it is the dynamic transition of entering the first floor from outdoors to indoors that gets people.

Expect there to be instances where players do engage at 10 feet, realize it, and then back off. Politely remind them, do not scream about it. It is a challenge since there are players from all over the US that attend that play in their home areas by different standards.

Expect staff players to be present and watching for such interactions. Please heed their advice and requests.

Expect the majority of players to not engage carelessly close and if they do, they will be quick to apologize, as I've seen far more positive instances over 3 Bulldogs of people being reasonable than not.

"Bang Bang" won't work when you're clearing a building full of rooms when one guy has a gun pointed towards a door and other guys are coming through it. Know what I mean?

Yep, especially since the bang-bang rule is for when you have someone dead-to-rights from behind anyway.
Wolv
Whiskey Company
OPNS: Chief of Staff/H-Co. 0101 SGT|NS2: H-Co. 0201|NS3: Chief of Staff/H-Co. 0302|NS4: Chief of Staff
OPI4: Delta Co. 0302|I6: TFR 0403|I7: TFR QRF
OPBD: Chief of Staff|BD2: T1-V2/Staff|BD3: Staff|BD4: Staff
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LoTone

soldier

Posts: 4

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:28 pm

Post Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:06 pm

Sounds good. Thanks, AustinWolv!

LT
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The 13th Exile

soldier

Posts: 16

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:34 pm

Post Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:46 pm

Wolv, didn't you tell me before (In the San Antonio forums) that a weapon chronoing under 300 fps was allowed (even at full auto) with no minimum engangement distance under TASO rules?

I'm not trying to argue here, just trying to clear things up...
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AustinWolv

major

Posts: 271

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:59 pm

Location: Round Rock, TX

Post Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:04 am

The 13th Exile wrote:Wolv, didn't you tell me before (In the San Antonio forums) that a weapon chronoing under 300 fps was allowed (even at full auto) with no minimum engangement distance under TASO rules?

I'm not trying to argue here, just trying to clear things up...

The TASO site says as much for indoor events and CQB venues.
Bulldog is a MOUT environment which is as much as an outdoor environment as it is indoors. Thus, the outdoor/regular rules are more applicable, similar in practice to the little city at TACPB.

Another difference here is site-specific in that we're trying to limit the amount of BBs left inside of buildings in order to not piss off our gracious military hosts.

In addition, the fact of much wider geographic audience of players attending plus the number of players attending means simple and clear lines in the sand need to be established, i.e. make all weapons semi-auto only indoors such that you don't have one player running at 295fps/.2g allowed to have full-auto indoors while the guy shooting 375fps/.2g has to be semi-auto only with no clear way to distinguish between the two replicas, not to mention the headache for staff of chrono'ing those different categories of replicas and having to find a way to mark them for instant recognition on the field.

For this event, simply follow the rules outlined at the top of this thread, along with the rules in your player packet. HH's comment earlier about following TASO rules pertains mainly to muzzle energy of the replica classes, as most of the other items are aligned with TASO as well, with some nitpicky differences here or there.

Feel free to catch me next weekend if you'd like to talk in more detail on the subject or simply ask here if there are other questions.
Wolv
Whiskey Company
OPNS: Chief of Staff/H-Co. 0101 SGT|NS2: H-Co. 0201|NS3: Chief of Staff/H-Co. 0302|NS4: Chief of Staff
OPI4: Delta Co. 0302|I6: TFR 0403|I7: TFR QRF
OPBD: Chief of Staff|BD2: T1-V2/Staff|BD3: Staff|BD4: Staff
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HammerHead

major

Posts: 243

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:42 am

Location: San Antonio

Post Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:47 am

Gentlemen: Please remember, these rules are in place to ensure your safety and entertainment at Bulldog. They are not in place to try and make an example of anyone or turn you into a villain. Understand then that, when necessary, the rules will be implemented and enforced by staff with a great deal of common sense, experience and perspective on your circumstances as players.

Nothing will make Sergeants Miller and Dobroff, John and your peers happier than to walk away from the event with the knowledge that the staff did not need to apply any penalties throughout the weekend.

If you use common sense and treat others as you would like to be treated, you will have an excellent weekend and so will everyone around you. :D
TGL
Whiskey Company

OP:NS1 H0201 | NS2 H0201 | NS3 H0302 | NS4 H0008
OP:BD1 Insurgent 7 Lead | BD2, BD3, BD4, BD5 Chief of Staff
OP:I5 Delta 3 Actual | I6 TFR0403 | I7 TFR:TFD BSM
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The 13th Exile

soldier

Posts: 16

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:34 pm

Post Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:02 am

AustinWolv wrote:The TASO site says as much for indoor events and CQB venues.
Bulldog is a MOUT environment which is as much as an outdoor environment as it is indoors. Thus, the outdoor/regular rules are more applicable, similar in practice to the little city at TACPB.

Another difference here is site-specific in that we're trying to limit the amount of BBs left inside of buildings in order to not piss off our gracious military hosts.

In addition, the fact of much wider geographic audience of players attending plus the number of players attending means simple and clear lines in the sand need to be established, i.e. make all weapons semi-auto only indoors such that you don't have one player running at 295fps/.2g allowed to have full-auto indoors while the guy shooting 375fps/.2g has to be semi-auto only with no clear way to distinguish between the two replicas, not to mention the headache for staff of chrono'ing those different categories of replicas and having to find a way to mark them for instant recognition on the field.

For this event, simply follow the rules outlined at the top of this thread, along with the rules in your player packet. HH's comment earlier about following TASO rules pertains mainly to muzzle energy of the replica classes, as most of the other items are aligned with TASO as well, with some nitpicky differences here or there.

Feel free to catch me next weekend if you'd like to talk in more detail on the subject or simply ask here if there are other questions.


Read you 5x5, Wolv. Like I said, I just wanted it cleared up. Thanks.
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jaygongin

soldier

Posts: 6

Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:02 am

Location: alvin, tx

Post Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:37 am

are the UTG, crossman, double eagle, etc. brand multi shot spring shotguns treated as a normal aeg with its limitations or as a sidearm?
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AustinWolv

major

Posts: 271

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:59 pm

Location: Round Rock, TX

Post Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:58 pm

jaygongin wrote:are the UTG, crossman, double eagle, etc. brand multi shot spring shotguns treated as a normal aeg with its limitations or as a sidearm?

http://www.oplionclaws.com/forums/viewt ... 3873#33873
Wolv
Whiskey Company
OPNS: Chief of Staff/H-Co. 0101 SGT|NS2: H-Co. 0201|NS3: Chief of Staff/H-Co. 0302|NS4: Chief of Staff
OPI4: Delta Co. 0302|I6: TFR 0403|I7: TFR QRF
OPBD: Chief of Staff|BD2: T1-V2/Staff|BD3: Staff|BD4: Staff

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